Constitution: 1 - USAPA: 0

Fang-Face writes " Things started getting rocky for USAPA along about 27 May when a CIA terrorism expert shot down government arguments about internet postings being a terrorist weapon. Today,
Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was acquitted. A resounding victory for free speech and the free exchange of ideas."

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Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

Still don't think it works, remember the bombings on 7/19/2003.

Now this is flamebait, I admit. It is also funny I think. There is no way to prove that the bombings we didn't have were the result of the USAPA. Then again there is no way to prove they are not.


I think the acquittal demonstrates that our system works. That is why we have public trials to assure that the innocent are not imprisoned (as best we can). It is better to let ten guilty men free than imprison one innocent man said someone much wiser than I but I certainly agree.

Re:Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

Jefferson. One hundred.

"It is better that one hundred guilty men go free than that one innocent man needlessly suffer." If I remember correctly.

Bush's attitude, as proven by his actions, is that it is better that one hundred innocent people be needlessly executed than that one guilty man should escape.

Re:Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

Bush's attitude, as proven by his actions, is that it is better that one hundred innocent people be needlessly executed than that one guilty man should escape.

Fang, you're a little late on the draw here.

Suggestion. Why not enjoy our system of due process and put your Bush bashin' to bed. The man was acquitted though I suspect some on your side may deem this decision as an opportunity lost.

Re:Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

Using the excuse that the system works is too little and too late. The system should not have been made to work in this case. After more than two hundred years of free speech your elected parasites still went ahead and criminalized a person's speech as a terrorist weapon. It's not like there weren't enough other legitimate charges to bring him up on. The Bush administration neo-fascists overreached themselves in their eagerness -- nay; hysteria! -- to prove that USAPA is a good and consitutional law. By doing so they unjustly accused a man of committing thought crimes. Not real crimes.

And my allusion to Bush as a bloodyhanded executioner was not particlular to this case. This case is not the be all end all of Bush perfidy. He has a long history starting with his gubernatorial record; if not earlier.

But I'll tell you what, Tomeboy. I'll stop bashing Bush when the Bushites stop bashing Clinton.

Re:Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

Clinton is not president anymore, why are you concerned about the past. The future is what you should be concerned with. You can't rewrite history and harping on what a good (or bad) president Clinton was is just a waste of time.


The concept that you don't think the system should have been used (made to work you said) in this case is absurd. If I or Osama hold up a liquor store we should each be treated the same. Are you suggesting Fang that there should be some extra-legal system for persons of Arab descent?


The USA PATRIOT Act is a good and constitutional law, although I orginally said it in jest, we have had no terrorist attacks, no bombings of 7/19/2003, or any other day since the USA PATRIOT Act went into effect. I can't chalk that up to coincidence.

Re:Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

The concept that you don't think the system should have been used (made to work you said) in this case is absurd).

It is not absurd at all; and I was not suggesting a two-tier system of law enforcement. I stated that the anti-free speech charges again Al-Hussayen were absurd, and they are. There were plenty of other criminal charges the government could have used to make its case, but in their overeagerness to catch and punish a "terrorist" they acted in bad faith. And if we want to express dissent for a two-tier system of justice, shouldn't also bring terrorism charges against whichever government department's web site also mirrors the speech for which Al-Hussayen was criminalized? See the article for 27 May.

no terrorist attacks [...] since the USA PATRIOT Act went into effect. I can't chalk that up to coincidence.

I can. It takes time and careful work to put into effect a plan as complex and as far-reaching as the WTC attacks. In any event, this is a Cause and Effect violation, mdoneil. You cannot prove that USAPA has had any anti-terrorism effect. Any terrorist actions that might have been uncovered since Sep. 2001, could have been uncovered without resorting to any new measures in USAPA, and you cannot simply wish away the human factor. I wrote in a comment some time ago that the intelligence failure of 2001 was no doubt due in part to inter-branch rivalry; that the FBI and the CIA rarely talked to each other. Since American federal law enforcement has been amalgamated into a monster bureaucracy under Homeland Security, the lines of communication haven't necessarily cleared up. All too often in a bureaucracy, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

As for Clinton, I didn't say anything about Clinton; that line was a dig at the Bushites, not Clinton.

Re:Don't think the USA PATRIOT Act works.

Clinton is not president anymore, hasn't been for four years--and yet his name frequently comes up as The Real Cause of All Our Troubles, whenever Bush supporters find themselves hard-pressed to defend the actual record of the guy who has been president for the last four years. One of the most common charges is that Clinton didn't do anything about bin Laden--but in fact, he did try, and conservatives howled "Wag the dog! Wag the Dog!" whenever he took overt action. Despite that, the millenium bombing plot _was_ foiled.Under the "grown-up" Bush, we got 9/11.And under the "grown-up" Bush, back in April we got a report telling us that terrorism was way down worldwide, "proving" that the War on Terrorism is working. Sadly, this month, due to a leak, they were forced to 'fess up to a little error with the numbers: in fact, terrorism worldwide is at a twenty-year high.Meanwhile, this defendant wasn't charged with holding up a liquor store or any other overt act; he was charged, as Fang-face says, with thought crimes. And that is something I'd expect conservatives--real conservatives, if we still had any in this country outside of the Democratic Party, to find _outrageous_.

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