Parents and Friends of ExGays and Gays: Ask your library to order ex-gay books

The Parents and Friends of ExGays and Gays shows how you can Ask your library to order ex-gay books "Please ask your county, school, or city library to order ex-gay books. Many public libraries have book order forms on their website which allow you to request specific books for the libraries to buy. Most local libraries stock gay books, but not ex-gay books. According to the American Library Association, libraries cannot support censorship and a librarian’s professional code requires them to seek out books that represent a wide range of viewpoints. Below is a letter from a PFOX Dad on how to ensure that your local library is not censoring ex-gay books "

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Jose Schwartz has some good

Jose Schwartz has some good points, but the key aspect his form letter is missing is that libraries buy books for their community. I imagine that a personal letter from a patron explaining why these books would be valuable to them, their friends and family, and/or people and organizations in the community would be more persuasive.

I'm always happy to see ISBNs included in lists of books, but links to professional reviews or excerpts from professional reviews would be more beneficial. Mr. Schwartz notes a website where the books can be purchased, however many libraries are required to use book vendors. Mr. Schwartz should investigate if Baker & Taylor, Ingram, or any other of the major providers carry these titles.

Also, while his links may add value to a library's website, it seems like they would be more appropriate under a Religion heading since they are ministry-based.

Reviews and verified authorship...

"anon" makes valid points about what we must consider for ANY resource on ANY topic - we have collection development policies. Sites must have verified authorship and "about" info to know who is posting info and why. Book reviews and titles from known experts will move a book up our limited selection lists. Perhaps this group should donate copies of these books. Libraries can no longer buy every suggested title just to make everyone happy, we just don't have the money. For many libraries we have to base our purchases on the most current trends and demands. We can no longer be everything to everyone. Many times it becomes a matter of not so much expanding our coverage but replacing all the well-worn copies that are much needed (i.e building a deck, SAT study guides, popular fiction...) It is unfortunate, but times have changed, especially for smaller libraries who simply worry about keeping doors open.

Lastly, I am quite certain that books on homosexuality cover the "origins" of it - but probably from a scientific, not religious viewpoint, which this group comes from.

What on earth is a "gay

What on earth is a "gay book?" "The Importance of Being Earnest"?

Ok, sorry. I know what he means. The writer's position seems to be that libraries usually carry "pro-gay" books, although he doesn't show that is true, and he would like some "anti-gay" books to be carried as well. Sure they're not framed as such. They're described as psychological or counseling books. But a book on proper hand washing would be "anti-germ" and "anti-microbe" would it not?

I'm going to get right on this. Right after I finish buying all those books by that one doctor who developed an injection to prevent people from being Chinese.

Christ.

Some people would benefit from reading a book. Some people would benefit from being hit by one or ten.

I have no idea what an ex-gay is

I am unclear on the ex-gay thing, then again the gay thing is not perfectly clear to me either. I guess I am just me, and I don't really care if people know every aspect of my personal life. If someone wants to know they can ask.

However, if patrons request a book I would generally buy it. Heck I bought those Cures they don't want you to know about books by that guy who can't sell stuff on TV anymore because he is a shyster. Lots of patrons asked for them so I bought them. I have an opinion of them - complete garbage- but that really didn't matter.

If lots of patrons are requesting ex-gay books I would buy them. I think anon is on the right track, tell your librarian why the library should get them and they probably will.

I amend

I'd buy a few if asked by a patron. No way in hell I'm buying them absent that.

Surely all library already carry books that fulfill their remit

The Bible, the Koran etc.
They are all anti-homosexual, surely if their faiths books are that special they don't need any others to 'balance out the trend for pro-gay books'?

anti?

"Material on how homosexuality originates was absent. Any resources to help people overcome their SAME SEX ATTRACTION were also absent." I don't think the Bible, Koran or other religious texts quite cover this. Those texts condemn it without any other helpful information. I don't know whether homosexuality is a choice or not, and that shouldn't be the issue. The issue is that if there is a request and need of this type of book from patrons, either the library should provide some or gladly accept donations that meet its donation policy--as was mentioned in several comments.

adding books to the collection

Dear sir (or ma'am),

Thank you for your recent letter regarding suggestions of titles for the Library to add to our collection. I can assure you that this list is important to us in determining the needs of the community.

However, due to recent budget cuts, the Library is currently limiting the purchase of new titles other than recent Best-sellers and research materials being demanded of students by the local high schools.

If you would like to donate new copies of any of the titles on the list, we would be happy to consider adding them to the collection. A copy of our 'gift books' policy is included with this letter (or attached with this email).

Sincerely,

"The Director"

Example books

I think the original letter is discussing books that are often referred to as "gay cure" books. Many have religion as their basis. Clearly these are controversial works. Why not buy them and have them available for study and critique? They are not magical. No one is going to touch one and become straight if they are gay. I would think that many in the gay community would be interested in seeing these books to see what tact the books take.

Some examples here.(Caveat: I neither endorse nor condone the content of the books linked to. I am providing the link to show some examples of the books that are available that are commonly referred to as "x-gay" or "gay cure" books)

Censorship in libraries

Thanks for taking the time to make comments on the PFOX request to contact local libraries.

Being an advocate is not my profession and all input from others is appreciated. Religions of all spectrums have been contacted by me to help families avoid the situation we have encountered.

Same Sex Attraction, like any addiction, is hard to overcome. No doubt religion will bolster the strength and determination of the individual. One must also keep in mind that Same Sex Attraction (or homosexuality should you prefer) had definite origins.

In our case when my son was 15 (12 long years ago) had been astute, they would have diagnosed the pre-homosexual condition and could have offered help. Instead, political agendas preclude information. When our son "came out" at 25, it was so hard to believe it drove me to search and search with no results.

Absolutely everything on how homosexuality develops is buried deep in the internet under stacks of propaganda. We, the parents of these fine, sensitive, intuitive and brave individuals suffer in silence due to the lack of information.

You have no idea the pain a parent has looking into the sad and hurting eyes of a child regardless of his age. This person you raised from the womb looks at you telling you everything is ok but your instincts know he is lying just as he has been for years.

Please take some time to understand the dark underbelly of homosexuality. Check out www.manhunt.com. Check the CDC statistics regarding an increase in HIV and AIDS. Go to www.pfox.com and read about the dangers of self identifying as "gay" early in life. Go to the International healing foundation web site (www.gaytostraight.com or org), download the newsletters and read the briefs on James McGreevey, Greg Louganis, and Rosie O'donnel. Trust me, this stuff will tear your heart out once you know what you are looking for.

Looking for more clues, watch Brokeback Mountain. Be sure to pay attention to the family of origin of both men. The clues to the puzzle are all around us. Only by putting them together will you see the picture.

Nobody is born "gay", it is a proven biological fact. Whenever you read anything to the contrary, GOOGLE the author because chances are they are either "gay" or lesbian churning out the same propaganda as fact. These are know as "presuppositions"...something that is presumed to be true just because you heard it.

If you think "gay" guys are those happy go lucky individuals that love to go shopping with their female friends, take the time to look under the mask. Talk to them when they are alone. Ask about their relationship with their parents and listen. What they say may not be true but it is true to them. Listen to them carefully, because there are messages, ask them to tell you some more.

Share this information with everyone. If you would like a compilation of articles just e-mail to joseschwartz@frontiernet.net.

Why do I write and talk to people about a subject that tears my heart out and brings me to tears you may wonder. The simplest way it can be described would be G-d told me to help.

Obviously since you took the time to write on the subject, you have an interest in helping too. All we need to do now is place all the information on the same table at the same time so those affected by Same Sex Attraction can make a valid choice. After all, if one is to "make a choice", they need to have more than one thing to choose from.

In closing, here are some websites people cn visit:
www.narth.com
www.pathinfo.org
www.gaytostraight.org
www.pfox.org
www.jonahweb.org
www.homosexuality101.com (great 18 minute video)

Thank you for your precious time. G-d bless.

Sincerely,

Jose Schwartz

new champion

I changed my mind. This is the funniest post of the year.

Especially the part about homosexuals cornering the market on AIDS, promiscuity and sleazy Internet hookups.

If "gay friends hanging out with their female friends and shopping" is a reasonable generalization to make you might have a problem with watching too much tv. Chinese people no longer all work at laundries either, by the way.

One of the funnier parts was

"Look at Brokeback Mountain"

A clear indication that the person making these assertions cannot tell fiction from reality.

One might say "Look at Edgar Rice Burrough's "A Princess of Mars"" as proof that there is life on that planet.

Those with a "you can cure homosexuals" viewpoint have an agenda that is far more insidious as the "homosexual" agenda that religious conservative claim exists.

While there are some homosexuals who give up active homosexual behavior, there is no data on the rate of recidivism, and in fact there is nothing to indicate this is simply not a case of people simply "returning to the closet" in which most homosexuals were forced to live in a few short decades ago. There is considerable evidence that the so called cure is simply as return to the closet in order to avoid the adverse consequences that current social stigma creates when many chose to come out of it.

Before the late 20th century, it was not uncommon for homosexuals to marry, father children, and live an external life that appeared to be heterosexual in every way. Many had secret homosexual relations, others didnt, but wanted to continually and usually were quite miserable in their heterosexual life. The "Cure for homoesexuality" movement more than anything else is simply a method by which those who are uncomfortable with he current social environment live out their dream of pushing homosexuals back into that closet.

Pick any small town in the bible belts, north,south, east or west, and then search Craig's list for "men looking for men" or "women looking for women' and you will make an interesting discovery. There will be more married men and women looking for a little discreet homosexual relationships than openly homosexual persons looking for another openly homosexual person to casually or more seriously become involved with.

Even funnier

Is the suggestion that one "Google" on a particular topic having to do with gays.

If one googles the words "Curing Gays" of "Curing Homosexuals" it is virtually impossible to locate anything but conservative religious opinion on this, not only from fundamentalist Christians, but fundamentalism Muslims, and in places where there are a good mix of both, from both together. Both say the same thing, all attempt the same methods, and none can actually provide scientific proof of sucess, but rather a good deal of anecdotal assertion.

This may on the surface seem "funny" but on the whole, has an underlying base that is rather frightening when one looks back at the history of similar attempts of treating homosexuality as a treatable "disease" or negative condition.

It usually has started out benign, and as the less brutal methods failed, more harsh, abusive, and even horrific methods were brought to bear. Eventually when even these failed, the solution was the death penalty for being gay. This has been the time worn path of every attempt to "cure" homosexuality.

HELLO

IT STARTS THE QUESTION , ARE WE BORN GAY BECAUSE IF IT IS EX IT MEANS WE CAN CHANGE

Or it means

One can repress ones sexual leanings rather than change them. Which is not the same thing. This is only something that would be asserted in a society that creates a stigma around homosexuality that defines it as something that is "bad" or something to be avoided or something to be feared or rejected. Again this has historically occured to many people for many reasons. Jews who became Christians publically, but remained Jews secretly to avoid the Inquisition. Jews who truly converted to Christianity, and whose children were raised Christian but who were subjected to frequent persecution anyway, because they were not beleived. Muslims who pretended to be Christians in the Christian world, Christians who pretended to be Muslims in the Muslim world also did similar things. And these are externalities. Not things that are in any way linked to primary human characteristics.

The idea that someone would CHOOSE to be homosexual in a place where it is extremely persecuted is about as absurd as a person converting to Judaism in while living in the town of Auschwitz. Its a less than likely scenario. And the smoke coming from the edge of town is a constant reminder.

I think I was

I think I was gay for a few hours when I was six. I was asleep then so I am not quite sure.

Why are you people still discussing this. Try to stay topical.

Where is all of this headed?

It does not matter if homosexuality is genetic or environment induced, the human species is not asexual, but the sexes are split. Male-male and female-female sex is against nature (unnatural), no different than bestiality and pedophilia. Simply because something occurs does not make it natural as to be normal, such as genetic diseases like Down's Syndrome, Sickle-cell disease, and Klinefelter's Syndrome. If society must accept homosexuality "because God made them that way" or "society did not teach them any better", then we must not go against God and open up all the jails and not punish anyone for doing what God made them and intended them to be. If you accept homosexuality as just another sexual preference that is being discriminated upon, then you must accept bestiality and pedophilia as just another sexual preference that is being discriminated upon. Afterall, God made them that way and who are you to say that God's intention for them to have sex with animals and little kids is wrong?

ah the usual

B.S.

It has been proven that homosexuality has a large genetic component.

What those who attempt to argue against this leave out of the genetic component is the genetic characteristic of variance. That is that sexual leaning elements of the genetic characteristics have a "range", much in the same way that everyone who has blue eyes does not have the exact same color blue eyes. There is a genetic variation in genetic component of sexuality that contains "degrees' in which the sexuality leans in one direction or the other, and past a certain tipping point, the person leans towards either a strong heterosexual leaning, or a strong homosexual leaning and once past this tipping point, no environmental effects can change this leaning in any way.

In fact, there is much evidence that homosexuality has some positive reason for existing. For some reason, homosexuality seems to be a method to limit reproduction. Either because of some degree of "overpopulation" that exists in a place, or because of some other geentic reason that exists to limit the persons with that particular genetic component from reproducing because it is linked to other
genetic characteristics.

The attempts to prove that homosexuality does no have a genetic component are largely the result of "pseudoscience" of the same sort that has dinosaurs and men living at the same time. It also relies on the same sort of techniques by which Nazi's attempted to prove that certain ethnicities were "inferior" races. Basically entire false sciences were created to attempt to create these assertions. The religious assertions are anachronisms which are particular to the areas in which the religions developed. For example, in the patriachal Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, sanctions against male homosexulaity are mentioned, but they are silent about lesbianism, which is not mentioned in any way. If ALL homosexuality were bad, or sinful, mention of both male and female homosexuality would most certainly crop up in the scripture of these religions, but it does not.

Most of the assertions that homosexuality is not genetic tends to come from scientists who start from a particular position, ignoring large portions of the science of genetic and environmental effects on genetic tendencies. That is some genetic tendencies lie dormant until triggered by some external factor like population, viruses, etc. Environmental triggers to genetic tenencies are many and widely distributed.

Everything that occurs in nature is by definition

Natural. The attempt to compare homosexuality to a disease, is a rhetorical trick or error known as "equivocation" with the attempt always being to associate the persons particular bigotry against a natural human condition, homosexuality with a disease process.

This has been done many times in history when one group has attempted to associate a disease or social conditions, with a particular minority, ethnicity, racial group, etc.

Things like "all Irishmen are drunks"

or when the British called syphilis "The French Disease" and the French called it "The English Disease" or when both called it "The Spanish Disease"

It is a primary tool of bigotry.

There were many cultures that accepted homosexuality as natural, historically. The next argument will of course be to argue that homosexuality caused this, but the rate of the decline of civilizations that rejected homosexuality as natural (the Chinese very conservative and family oriented Confucian empires, are an example, as is the extremely conservative and Christian Byzantine Empire, which also was not terribly accepting of homosexuality, where under many emperors there was active persecution of homosexuals...the Orthodox Byzantine Empire sunk as hard and fast as any "pagan" empire)

Every group has its dark underbelly

The heterosexual group has an underbelly than is far larger and darker than anything the heterosexual community is being accused of, and in fact, in many case is not even guilty of. Most of the assertions about gays are similar to the assertions about Jews and Homosexuals during the Nazi era, they are simply more subtle. For years the primary methods of "curing" homosexuals, even in modern western world, would be considered torture by any devout Christian who was subjected to the same efforts to cure them of Christian beliefs by Soviet Medical Science, which viewed religion, and in particular Christianity as a "disease"

Every society has groups its more conservative elements reject, and they have always used the same argument in the rejection.

P.S.

I know many gays and on average they are as happy or unhappy as most heterosexual couples I know, and their relationships hold up long term at least as well as heterosexual relationships, if not more and to a greater degree, and the reason for this tends to be that as a discriminated against group, they tend to be more cohesive within that group. The same sort of thing occured among Jews in Europe when they were heavily persecuted against by the Christian majority around them. Their traditions, their interpersonal relationships, etc, tended to be stronger and more supportive and cohesive than similar relations among Christians before the early 20th century and well into it.

Again most of these assertions are anecdotal, rather then really statistical, and even the available statistics are often skewed to suit the purposes of those who wish to apply a personal set of belief to others. There is no evidence that gays are any more happy or unhappy that they are gay that can be atrtibuted to being gay.

Rather the social and religious stigma attached to being gay tends to be seen as being far more contributory to any unhappiness that may be observed in gays. When gays exist in areas where there is litte or no such social stigma, there is no observable degree of greater happiness of unhappiness.

Freedom of Speech

I know that we, as librarians, have to order these books (if it fits in with our mission and our collection development policy...take that, PFOX suckers!) and not censor anyone.

But I have to say this...isn't it funny how the people who are not censored are the ones trying to do the censoring? I suppose we should be grateful that they are simply asking to add books to the collection, as opposed to asking that we remove so-called pro-gay books...but somehow I feel that this is their way around that. These anti-gay people know we won't censor anyone, so why ask us to? Simply use it against us. It's an interesting new tactic.

Bunny Burnstein

Well, most libraries have to keep many books

Often for historical purposes. Many libraries have copies of Mein Kampf, but this does not mean that he librarians have to embrace its philosophy or description of the social and political situation in Europe at the time it was written, nor the cure for those problems it offered.

There is a difference between censoring a book or an idea, and vehemently opposing them when they may be part of the same old evils that have plagued mankind for millenia rearing an ugly head again in a new form.

There is little in books of this type, or the suggestions that it claims it offers, that have not occured in the past, many, many times. This book basically recommends a medical treatment. Something librarians can point out, but not recommend a person take one direction or the other.

"Ex-Gay" Book?

I've lived in a "gay" (not happy, although we certainly were most of the time) community for 15+ years. Is that community in need of an "Ex-Gay" book?

I'm not sure my friends needed or wanted such a book.....I'm quite sure of those surviving, none of them even care.

I really don't believe that Ex-gays, need the book...after all they are "Ex".... Or is the book really intended for them, giving them the support they need to make sure that they do not return to their former life of sin?

So, who is this book written for? Who is the audience? Those who have those particular Religious (un-unconditional love attitudes) beliefs that the book expounds?

Certainly it is not for my community (no one here as even mentioned purchasing or adding it to me), therefore, it will not end up on our shelves any time soon, if ever.

Mi Takuye Oyacin (We Are ALL Related)

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